It's a Shame...

"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu)
02/11/2018 at 14:13 • Filed to: tSSSSSSsssss, Subaru BRZ

That “tS” isn’t the “tSSSSSSSSSSsssssssss!!!” of a blowoff valve.

DISCUSSION (14)

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > way2blu does a rev update
02/11/2018 at 14:20

More power? Bah!

way2blu does a rev update > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute
02/11/2018 at 14:34

My non-turbo ‘91 MR2 has no problem overpowering its rear tires and having a good time. The BRZ, with only slightly higher torque output almost 30 years later, did NOT need stickier tires. But now it’s got them anyway.

I think it’s really the torque-to-grip ratio that everyone’s complained about in the BRZ, and Subaru just made it a lot worse.

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > way2blu does a rev update
02/11/2018 at 14:41

It’s just the standard of today’s cars, the feel is different in older cars but enjoyable still.

way2blu does a rev update > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute
02/11/2018 at 14:49

More enjoyable. New cars are too composed and stable these days. Less fun to be had, when driving at at just 7/10ths means going way over the speed limit :(

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > way2blu does a rev update
02/11/2018 at 14:50

This. Older cars are more raw and primal, if you will. You feel one with the car and it’s all just crazy and fun as hell.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > way2blu does a rev update
02/11/2018 at 15:09

I discussed this a lot with the fanboys on Jalopnik. They are impossible, blinded by Subaru/Toyota obsession. Even a few hundredths more gs on the skidpad won’t make up for the fact it can’t keep up with even a base model modern pony car (an m-f’n pony car, where handling is a distant afterthought behind raw power) in the straights or the corners. My bone stock hot hatch, which isn’t even fast, can out-corner and out-run a Toybaru with a solid margin.

I just don’t get it. The people in my circles that bought them all replaced them with something objectively better in some way (faster, better handling, and/or more practical) within two years.

way2blu does a rev update > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
02/11/2018 at 15:17

My lil’ NON-turbo MR2 literally makes more torque between 3500-4500 than the BRZ does across the same revs. Mine has a Camry engine designed and engineered in the ‘80s.

I test-drove a BRZ and keeping it above 4500 constantly is a joke. An MR2 that was built 25 years before the first BRZs has a better, more usable torque curve.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > way2blu does a rev update
02/11/2018 at 15:33

You know, I have always thought that the biggest mistake they made with the Toybaru twins was trying to make them an 86 successor and not a modern MR2. If they were mid-engine and had more torque, nobody would be complaining. It’s not like their back seats are useful, anyhow...

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > way2blu does a rev update
02/11/2018 at 15:48

This is why all I care about is cornering. Everything with decent handling has adequate power to drive on the road. If I’m to have any fun without getting arrested, I need to be able to corner with maybe a slight throttle lift.

Also: Speed limits are set far too low for modern cars.

WRXforScience > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
02/11/2018 at 18:02

Your hatch cannot out corner a twin. I traded in a WRX with twice the horsepower and three times the torque for my BRZ and I have so much more fun in the BRZ that 5 of my friends did the exact same thing within 3 months of me.

Maybe you just have to learn to utilize the full capabilities of the car, with a light weight, low horsepower car, the driver is the most important factor in speed.

Here is my last trackday, I was the second fastest car on the track (behind a C6 Corvette). There were 4-5 Mustangs, a Camaro ZL1, and a couple of other “fast cars”. Now, if you aren’t at a track and you don’t or can’t reach the limits of the car, then you’ll always feel that the car is “too slow” or under powered.

Adding horsepower and weight just makes everything cost more. Brakes, tires, all your consumables cost more. The parts have to be bigger and stronger, and by the time you’re all done you’ve got a vehicle that you just can’t fully utilize and enjoy.

There’s a reason you can’t go to a track without seeing all sorts of Miata, the twins are like hardtop Miatas.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > WRXforScience
02/11/2018 at 21:01

Except you’d be wrong. It can. everything shows that it is faster in a straight line, gets higher lateral acceleration (skidpad) readings on stock tires (the BRZ on very sticky aftermarket tires still gets worse readings than a bone stock FoST), and even lap times are distinctly better. Comparing the numbers against these other cars, and you’re either lying or those people can’t drive their cars.

Being competitive with a roadster designed in the 1980s with no illusions that it would be a performance car isn’t exactly something that should impress anyone.

My car is often derided for being slow and I don’t dispute it, it is! It corners well, but it’s definitely slow. I didn’t buy it to be fast, I bought it to have a practical car that is also fun to drive. Still, it’s faster and corners better than a BRZ, which is counterintuitive, but it’s a fact.

In reality, a BRZ on sticky tires is roughly neck-and-neck with a FiST, a subcompact hatch.

WRXforScience > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
02/11/2018 at 21:34

As a competitive autox and time trial driver, I can tell you that a BRZ is better than the FoST and FiST. I pull 1.2-1.4g’s on good tires (grip and handling aren’t the same, but even there the main component are the tires).

In autox, the FoST and FiST are GS/HS cars while the twins are CS/DS cars, because the Fords are slower.

The modified FoST used to compete in STX with the twins and it was slower (it’s been moved to a different, slower class for 2018).

The Miata is the quintessential sportscar, it is the most raced car in the world and has been for decades. It is the car for track days.

Here is Vorshlag running a Focus RS at the same track, it’s slower than my BRZ (the driver holds track records on the course in a couple of classes).

Looks like when they finished their testing and upgrades the RS managed to put down a 1:23.5s, so they got me by a little over 1s using the RS. The peak g’s were also lower than mine (even after the upgrades).

I couldn’t find any videos of an ST doing a faster lap than mine.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > WRXforScience
02/11/2018 at 23:06

And... I just can’t. Not possible. Those are not real skidpad numbers. There aren’t many motorcycles that’ll exceed 1.2g.

I’ll just leave this here:

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/i81lpai54cel

WRXforScience > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
02/11/2018 at 23:52

Those were g readings from the track (you can watch them on my video), and those times are on stock tires. The twins come with awful stock tires.

Magazine times aren’t particularly useful, tires alone can dramatically change track times (my 200tw street tires are worth at least 3-5s over the stock tires at my local tracks). If you don’t run the cars on the same tires, you can’t compare them.

I have first hand knowledge of the performance of both vehicles at the track and at autocross, the twins are faster at both. Now, if you go drag race your FoST is gonna win, and I’m sure you can find a few horsepower courses where the FoST could win.

I race with a guy who drives a FoST, at the beginning of last season he c0-drove with me in my car at an autox and then immediately decided to move his car to a different class. He realized that his FoST could not compete head to head with the twins after he drove one.

The FoST is great for a FWD hatch, but it isn’t on the same level as a RWD sportscar. I don’t claim that my BRZ is as practical as your FoST or is a better daily driver or would do well against it in a drag race; however, the twins handle better and are the better track/autox car.

There is a wide chasm between regular people, track rats, and professional drivers. Each step in progression leaves a wider gap in lap times than between most cars.

For example, there is an exotic car rental place that uses part of one of the local tracks (the 1.3 course at Motorsports Ranch in Cresson). There are hundreds of videos of people driving Ferrari’s, Lamborghini’s, GTRs, and Vipers. My personal best (1:09.1) is multiple seconds faster than the fastest videos (the fastest I’ve seen is about a 1:12 in the Viper, most videos are super slow with times over 1:20). A professional driver would beat me by a couple of seconds in my own car.

Track times vary so much with conditions, tires, and the driver that they really aren’t a great way to pick a car. And sometimes, the slower car is more fun.